>Basically what I'm trying to say is that if I did make it into that 10% "elite", I see a better opportunity by leaving than staying.

So, even as someone who is kinda upper-middle class, economically speaking, from what I can tell, other countries are more focused on class markers like degrees;

As a 10%'er[1] without a degree, well the USA seems to have much more opportunity for the 'I have experience, but no degree' type than the rest of the world does.

(Now, I did a whole bunch of research on this a few years back, but I didn't actually try, so I could be wrong. From what I saw, it would be hard, but not impossible without a degree, and once I moved, well, I wouldn't be getting paid more than I can get here, and in most cases, I'd be getting paid rather less.)

So, uh, yeah. From what I've seen, yeah, you are way better off as a poor person in Europe, once you are in; This does alleviate some of the worries that come with entreprenuership. but getting in? yeah, they are going to make it difficult for you if you don't have the traditional markers of the upper middle class. And generally, you are getting the most cash on the barrelhead for your time here in silicon valley; If you want to finance your venture through your own labor (and are willing to live on the cheap) this is the place to do it.

[1]typical overpaid bay-area sysadmin/programmer contractor. Top 10%, in terms of income, if you mean the whole US of A; not so much if you only count silicon valley.

As an aside, I find it interesting that Americans tend to count income more than assets. Perhaps because it's easier? I am struggling to own some means of production, but... what I do own is difficult to value. Actually, at the moment, my income is way more complicated than that, too, as I'm dumping everything into that aforementioned means of production. But, eh, when I looked into this in 2006, I was making six figures working full time, so everything I said was true as of that time.

> the USA seems to have much more opportunity for the 'I have experience, but no degree' type than the rest of the world does

Are you referring to formal immigration requirements, or the job market? I definitely agree on formal immigration requirements. But if you're an EU citizen (and therefore have freedom of movement), experience without a degree becomes pretty sellable again, at least in tech (less so in traditional industry, but that's also true in the US).

In the current market here, anyone who can program an iPhone app can get a job, or start a freelance business. Degrees are good, but not critical. They're seen as good in part because there's no tuition, and in fact you get paid a stipend while you attend school to cover living expenses. So there's kind of a view that there's no excuse for not having one: unlike in the U.S., it couldn't be that you couldn't afford to go to school, so there must be some other reason, and employers want to probe if it's a reason they should be worried about.

>Are you referring to formal immigration requirements, or the job market?

This was my perception as someone (without a degree) looking for a job that would have required going through the immigration rigmarole. A potential employer would have to want me enough to help me (or at least wait for me) to get through the government stuff, so... both.

Come to think of it, the closest I came was some startup in Israel who wanted me; Their interest level dropped a lot after they found out I didn't have any Jewish relatives (and thus would not have an automatic 'in' during immigration; I don't think this was racism on the part of the company; it was just the extra work they'd have to do.) I mean, I might have been able to get the job anyhow if I tried hard? but turns out wages in Israel are less than half what you expect in silicon valley, and I had this idea that I could make /more/ elsewhere, (which I now think is... pretty unrealistic.)

>Degrees are good, but not critical. They're seen as good in part because there's no tuition, and in fact you get paid a stipend while you attend school to cover living expenses.

Really? There are no good private schools?

Is there a time limit on the stipend?

It's harder to do immigration formalities without a degree, no disagreement there. Although I believe that's somewhat true in the U.S., too: while many Valley companies will hire someone without a degree, my impression is that there is a higher bar for hiring someone foreign without a degree. E.g. Google is more likely to sponsor a German degree-holder for a U.S. visa than a German non-degree-holder. The world of good tech jobs without degrees is a lot easier to unlock (in both the U.S. and Europe) for permanent residents / citizens.

Yeah, I wouldn't leave the Valley if you want to make a higher salary, unless it's a jump to some kind of high-level management position. The Valley has pretty much the highest tech salaries afaik. Switzerland might come close.

You might come out ahead in some places in lifestyle after cost of living, but it depends on your lifestyle. A nice thing about Copenhagen is that, while it's expensive to live in the city, it's not NYC/SF levels of expensive (or Paris/London, for that matter). It's maybe $1500-$2000/mo for a nice centrally located 2bd... rather than the $3000+ my friends in SF pay. And you can buy a condo for maybe $300k, which last I checked was completely impossible in SF.

As far as private universities, there aren't any: only state schools are accredited. There are some private professional institutes, like an animation school and a film school, but they aren't allowed to give degrees (instead they give their own certificates), and are seen as a different kind of thing.

The time limit for the student stipend is the regular length of the degree, with possibility in some circumstances to get another 6 months. So, 3 years for the bachelor's, plus 2 years for the master's. A hard max (after both degrees and extensions on both) of 6 years.

Typically students will do the two together as one five-year program; you can stop after the bachelor's, but the traditional Danish first degree was a 5-year degree (called a candidature), which is still sort of expected. The 3-year bachelor's/2-year master's split was introduced in 1993 to harmonize with other EU countries' systems, but a bachelor's on its own is still seen as not quite complete education (may change as memories of the old 5-year candidature fade).

>It's harder to do immigration formalities without a degree, no disagreement there. Although I believe that's somewhat true in the U.S., too:

Oh yeah; from what I understand, it's even more true here than anywhere else. But I was born here, so it's not a problem I deal with directly.

Your university system sounds like some kind of socialist paradise. Jesus. Do you know how good a 3 year vacation sounds to an American? (And yes, if I went to school, I'd likely study history, and that can't be rationally counted as anything but a vacation.) Even the top 10% jobs only give you 4 weeks a year of vacation time. (we get another 9 days or so of holidays, usually, which are on fixed days, and, of course, weekends.)

I will say that I've been lucky to be afforded some of the opportunities that I've had without a degree. I have at times made quite a decent living. But Danes aren't really bad off in that respect either. It's typical to see them completing high school and university later than other Western countries because they're afforded the ability to take time off (to work or whatever) and still complete their education.

The problem though was something that you mention yourself - the difficulty of obtaining assets. Real estate prices in the Valley right now are through the flippin' roof. Arguably the definition of a middle class is the ability to obtain your own assets.

If you're making a high wage but can't convert that to assets where you live, are you really middle class? If you're making a high salary but spending most (or nearly all) of it on rent and upkeep on debt, I'd argue that you're still working poor; you may be comfortable but you're dependent on a paycheck coming in.

>If you're making a high wage but can't convert that to assets where you live, are you really middle class?

Well, a family of two folks making valley sysadmin/programmer wages is making like $200K/year. Even single-earners in that tax bracket can buy real estate. (during the crash, I know a lot of single people who bought condos.) Real-estate here is not unaffordable for employed Engineers.

I would certainly have a fairly nice place (or several shitty rentals) if I wasn't spending all my money on servers.

But yeah, I agree that if you only have income from labour and don't have any assets, well, you aren't really middle class in a meaningful sense of the word. I'm just saying that it's pretty reasonable for people in my industry to buy real-estate around here. And that's not the only 'means of production' you can buy; that's just the easiest means of production to get loans on. All my money goes to servers (well, I buy servers... I actually spend more money on labour, electricity, and data-center space, but I rent those things, which is a rather different thing.)

Edit: most of my developer friends aren't big spenders; if they don't own a house, they have a thick 401k, and often a stock portfolio outside of that 401K. Most of them have substantial savings. I think it's fair to call them upper-middle class, even if they don't own the house they live in.

(Note, I'm mostly speaking of the previous generation here; the 30+ folks who came of age during the first dot-com.)