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Dumb question: what keeps me from spoofing the fingerprint[1] and obtaining all the passcodes at once?

[1] https://phys.org/news/2005-12-biometric-expert-easy-spoof-fi...



First, note that the article you linked is pretty old — the people who build biometric systems have added countermeasures in the last couple decades. They're definitely not perfect but it's not an especially easy attack since it's personalized and doesn't scale.

The first thing to remember is that your fingerprints / face scan are not the identifier for your passkey. They are used by the local device to unlock its secret store but the actual keys are regular crypto keys and the remote website never sees any of them. The interface also does not provide access to the private keys ever, and it should be rate-limited so it's not “get all of the keys” but the much slower “use the phone I stole to hammer out requests to different websites, mashing that sensor every second or two”. That means that whoever stole your phone & forged your biometrics is in a race with you revoking their access, but when you do it won't matter that they have your biometrics unless they can also steal your new phone (stop pissing off the Mossad).

The other thing to consider is what your threat model is. If you're worried about someone stealing your phone and building a realistic model of your fingerprint or scan of your facial structure, you have to ask what the alternatives are. For example, it'd be a LOT easier for an attacker to use a hidden camera or drone to record you entering your password — not using biometrics means you're typing it frequently, for example — and you're also at risk for all of the scenarios which passkeys are immune to (credential reuse, phishing, weak passwords), which happen to be by far the most common way people are compromised. Very few of us have to worry about targeted attacks by skilled adversaries, and if you are worried about that you probably need to move or hire a bodyguard more than anything involving infosec.


> The interface also does not provide access to the private keys ever

There are both statements all over this thread, "the private key is inextricably bound to the device" and "the private key can be backed up". This seems to be an attempt to declare both the problem with theft and the problem with lost devices as solved. Except, they are mutually exclusive: If the key is bound to the device, I can't back it up. If I can back the key up, it can't be bound to the device and can be stolen.

There is one way to get both, which I assume Google is offering here: Have the key inaccessible to the user of the device, but allow some cloud provider access, so it can be automatically backed up to the cloud.

That's all fine and good, but now you're dependent on the cloud provider not playing games with you. And you still have to authenticate to the cloud provider in some way, e.g. to add a new device. (And have to do that in a way that someone who stole your phone couldn't just do the same)

> The other thing to consider is what your threat model is. If you're worried about someone stealing your phone and building a realistic model of your fingerprint or scan of your facial structure, you have to ask what the alternatives are. For example, it'd be a LOT easier for an attacker to use a hidden camera or drone to record you entering your password

You can also view this from a different angle: Phones get lost all the time, sometimes stolen. It's statistically not that unlikely that your phone will get lost at some point and the people who find it may not always have the best intentions.

If a phone is in the wrong hands, it's much easier to gain access to the phone using fingerprints than it is using passwords: There is a good chance some usable fingerprints from you are still on the device cover itself. Sure, an attacker would need some resources to take the fingerprints and build something that can be used with the phone's sensor, but if enough people use fingerprints for auth, attackers will streamline this step quickly.

That's bad enough if it grants "only" access to the phone itself, but now it would also grant the attacker access to each and every online account.

Sure, you could race to deactivate keys - if you remembered to setup alternative login methods before, because otherwise it's you now who cannot login anymore.


> There is one way to get both, which I assume Google is offering here: Have the key inaccessible to the user of the device, but allow some cloud provider access, so it can be automatically backed up to the cloud.

It's a bit more complicated than that: if you enable synchronization, Google or Apple have stored encrypted blobs but they don't have access to the data. To decrypt it you still need access to one of your linked devices.

The other thing to remember is that the keys can be exposed only for the time it takes to install them: you get a new phone, it downloads the blob and has one of the other devices approve decryption, and that key is immediately re-encrypted locally. That makes it a lot harder to get a copy because the attacker has to compromise one of the registered devices enough to attack that process rather than simply getting access to an unlocked phone.

Finally, it's not as simple as one-key-to-rule-them-all: the WebAuthn handshake has both the synced key and a device key. That means that a high-security application could still do additional checks any time they see the synced key used with a previously-unseen device key.

> If a phone is in the wrong hands, it's much easier to gain access to the phone using fingerprints than it is using passwords: There is a good chance some usable fingerprints from you are still on the device cover itself. Sure, an attacker would need some resources to take the fingerprints and build something that can be used with the phone's sensor, but if enough people use fingerprints for auth, attackers will streamline this step quickly.

Again, I would suggest looking at the decades of prior art (or considering that it's moot for the majority of Apple users using infrared facial scans with liveness checks). It's actually pretty hard to get usable prints since they need to have some structure, not just a single flat image, and people don't commonly build phone cases out of things which record that kind of detail.

It's not impossible but the odds are already low even before you consider that the attacker only has a few tries and a time window to accomplish it in. Most people are not interesting enough to launch this type of attack against (think about what it's like trying to make money with that unlocked phone without leading the police to your door) and in a targeted attack looking for something like political dirt they're going to get that password by watching the user type it because not using more advanced systems means they're forced to do so frequently.

> That's bad enough if it grants "only" access to the phone itself, but now it would also grant the attacker access to each and every online account.

Kind of like what happens if they get full unrestricted access your phone without this and recover all of the saved passwords?

Remember that this is all optional geared at the vast majority of normal users. If you really think that the risk of someone recovering a fingerprint / facial scan is too high, you're free to continue using hardware WebAuthn tokens like you are hopefully doing right now. What this is solving is the friction around creating secure passwords and not losing them, and getting away from the idea that an email address is the real key to everything.

If you want more details about how it works, I would definitely listen to Adam Langley's interview here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1822302/11122508-passkeys-feat-ad...


Note you can't just get the keys even if you have a fingerprint. You would need to maintain continuous access to the device while it is still signed in as the user. It would be pretty easy to the "find my device", if the user didn't already notice you were handling it




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