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I live happily in the knowledge that in 20000 years when that eventually drifts off into another system and is picked up by aliens that they will reverse engineer it and wonder why the fuck '5'-'4'=1

What Proton sell you is reduction of anxiety. But that's a lie.

The whole idea of encrypted email is pointless. There's absolutely no guarantee it's encrypted in transit or encrypted at rest on any machines it transits through unless you encapsulate the messages with PGP and then you still leave a trail of envelopes everywhere. Any government who wants your data will come round and beat it out of you or the provider as best as they can. And if you have the pay the provider, as evidenced here, they can point to you and then beat you for it. Beating being metaphorical or otherwise.

Use any old shitty email provider and make sure you can move off it quickly if you need to. Standard IMAP, not weird ass proprietary stuff like proton. Think carefully what you do and say. Use a side channel for anything that actually requires security.


Thanks for pointing that out. I always do too. I'm always surprised how many people here aren't aware of this.

You can pay proton anonymously according to some other comments here...

We do care. Someone's gotta stand up to it.

They’ll still be in business in 20 years. So much for all that standing up.

This.

Actually fuck the whole dynamic web. Just give us hypertext again and build native apps.

Edit: perhaps I shouldn't say this on an VC driven SaaS wankfest forum...


You may be interested in https://geminiprotocol.net/

Yes that's exactly what we should be using. Totally agree.

Doing some security work now. And it seems half of my problems are because some other site get to run any random code so they might call my site. And I have to protect against that. I am somewhat annoyed. Why is this design acceptable in first place?

Imagine if wikipedia was a native app, what this vuln would have caused. I for one prefer using stuff in the browser where at least it's sandboxed. Also, there's nothing stopping you from disabling JS in your browser.

Wikipedia should be straight hypermedia. Simple.

If it was a native app it wouldn't be grabbing one of the hosted files and running it as code.

Have you never seen a native app's auto-update get hijacked by malware? It happened (yet again) last month [0]

Tons of native apps also have plugins or addons, which (surprise surprise) is just code downloaded from some central repo, and run with way less sandboxing than JS.

[0] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/notepad-plus-...


That's pretty far from hosting the program in the same spot the content it manages is hosted, and also installing fresh versions instantly.

I mean sure, but that's never going to happen, so complaining about it is just shaking your fist at the sky. The only way it will change is if the economics of the web change. Maybe that is the economics of developer time (it being easier/fast/more resilient and thus cheaper to do native dev), or maybe it is that dynamic scripting leads to such extreme vulnerabilities that ease of deployment/development/consumer usage change the macroeconomics of web deployment enough to shift the scales to local.

But if there's one thing I've learned over the years as a technologist, it's this: the "best technology" is not often the "technology that wins".

Engineering is not done in a vacuum. Indeed, my personal definition of engineering is that it is "constraint-based applied science". Yes, some of those constraints are "VC buxx" wanting to see a return on investment, but even the OSS world has its own set of constraints - often overlapping. Time, labor, existing infrastructure, domain knowledge.


I think it will change.

The entire web is built on geopolitical stability and cooperation. That is no longer certain. We already have supply chains failing (RAM/storage) meaning that we will be hardware constrained for the foreseeable future. That puts the onus on efficiency and web apps are NOT efficient however we deliver them.

People are also now very concerned about data sovereignty whereas they previously were not. If it's not in your hands or on your computer than it is at risk.

The VC / SaaS / cloud industry is about to get hit very very hard via this and regulation. At that point, it's back to native as delivery is not about being tied to a network control point.

I've been around long enough to see the centralisation and decentralisation cycles. We're heading the other way now


I think on a high level we're in agreement then. All of those points you mentioned are constraints.

> "VC / SaaS / cloud industry is about to get hit very very hard via ... regulation"

can you explain?


Why? Well mostly due to the unpredictable behaviour of the country which seems to have the control points of most infra these days.

How? Well the numerous non-US sovereign technology initiatives are going to be incentivised through regulation with local compliance being the only option going forwards.

As a non-US person I am already speaking to people at other orgs in similar space as ours who are looking at options there.


Yeah that. Same here.

100% this. They published straight up misinformation as fact first, announced it as breaking news, pushed it to BBC app, then corrected it all later then pretended nothing happened.

I don't pay for a license because the programming is crap now though.


>They published straight up misinformation as fact first

Can you add some specifics to this claim? I'm unaware of the BBC having reported "Hamas-sourced" substantial misinformation as fact. I'm sure some errors and retractions have been done - especially given that BBC like all Western media continues to be forbidden to operate freely in Gaza.


During the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital incident they posted an entirely unverified and unattributed story stating that the cause was an Israeli air strike, pushed this as breaking news and 43 minutes later changed the attribution to Hamas and PIJ sources confirmed.

This lead to two of my female Jewish friends getting spat on and having their hair pulled on the tube and called murdering zionists.

This happens a lot with the BBC in the rush to publish. It is not an excusable situation. There are real consequences. The decline is parallel to the rise in social media and moving the news teams out of London and attention dynamics.

You can find a list of problems in the corrections and clarifications here - work through 2023 to 2025: https://www.bbc.co.uk/helpandfeedback/corrections_clarificat...


> This lead to two of my female Jewish friends getting spat on and having their hair pulled on the tube and called murdering zionists

Do you think this is specifically and only due to that specific, single story, or do you think it might be a cumulative effect due to all the rest of what's been happening? Not that this excuses or justifies random attacks on other people simply because they happen to be Jewish, that's how the cycle of reprisal happens.


There was a major uptick after that. The BBC were quoted over and over by social media influencers which lead to further blanket demonisation of Israelis and Jews. It simply legitimised violence. Hence my point about there needing to be editorial considerations made as there are consequences.

You know the stupid shit thing though? My friendship group has an Iranian, a Palestinian, a Saudi, two Jews and a bunch of English people in it, a German and I'm literally descended from a nazi and everyone is quite happy and gets on fine.

Divisive narratives hurt everyone.


I'm not going to dispute what you're saying, but the causal relation (between BBC and the attack, or especially their faith and the attack) and the overall context seem murky and very ambiguous.

I'm not saying it was entirely intentional or there was an agenda, it's just unprofessionalism over and over and over again. At some point it becomes institutionalised at which point you become a propaganda outfit for a foreign entity publishing their statements verbatim.

See my other post in the thread for some further extrapolation of the side effects, but this was quoted over and over again by social media using the BBC's reputation to legitimise it.


>I'm not saying it was entirely intentional or there was an agenda, it's just unprofessionalism over and over and over again.

A few things here:

1) I'm not seeing the "over and over again" part at all, can you help me there?

2) The more scrutiny we give to this claim, the more the strength of it seems to fade. We went from BBC critically misinforming the British public by uncritically reporting Hamas statements, to the BBC misattributing an attack in a war full of misattributed attacks on both sides, which was corrected within hours.

3) Do you think there are similar examples of BBC reporting or publication that could be used to make the opposite case - that BBC holds a pro-Israel bias?


1. Not the OP, but check out the BBC's own internal memo.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/06/read-devastating...

Direct link to Israel/Hamas section:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/06/read-devastating...

Here's a Guardian (left) report about the Director General resigning over reports of bias across multiple issues including Israel/Hamas:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2025/nov/09/tim-davie-expe...

And Reuters:

https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/britains-bbc-...

And an anti-Hamas/pro-Israel critique:

https://honestreporting.com/exposed-leaked-report-reveals-th...


Telegraph is paywalled, got a source I can read without forking out?

Beyond that, what you're presenting appears to be much more generalized than the original claim that I asked for examples of. For example, the Reuters story is about a BBC editor resigning over an edit to a Trump documentary - not relevant at all to what we're discussing!

I'm specifically looking for cases of BBC reporting disinformational Hamas statements as fact, in a fashion that did or was likely to have critically misled the British public. That's what was supposed to have been happening, so I'd like to review the examples myself.


> Got a source I can read without forking out?

Sure. https://archive.is/tFzfZ

> > the Director General resigning over reports of bias across multiple issues including Israel/Hamas:

> a BBC editor resigning over an edit to a Trump documentary

Yes, as mentioned systemic bias is across multiple issues, including Israel/Hamas but not limited to that issue.

> I'm specifically looking for cases of BBC reporting disinformational Hamas statements as fact

Yes, the HonenestReporting critique mentioned does that.


As I started reading through the report (published in the Telegraph, almost entirely about bias in BBC Arabic coverage), I found it rather humorous: the incidents mentioned are undeniably instances of bias, but the few cases the author of the report was able to painstakingly find over 2 years of coverage were a rounding error in comparison to the daily pro-Israel bias in every major Western publication.

It stands to reason that it'd be a rounding error, both because of the overwhelming, omnipresent pro-Israel bias displayed by the mainstream media and almost every government, in full opposition to the popular sentiment and the communications of NGOs or humanitarian law institutions, and because of the complete disconnect between the casualties on the Israeli side versus the many tens of thousands of dead in Gaza...

Then I got to the section of the report that questioned the casualty numbers from the Gaza Ministry of Health... This has been a consistent target for criticism by Israel, but the criticism has repeatedly failed to find any purchase: the MoH methodology is widely understood to be a (severe) undercount of the dead, there has been no reasonable deconstruction of the methodology, there has been no estimates (outside of genocide apologists) that have been below the MoH numbers. At this point, criticism of the MoH methodology is about as credible as descriptions of Gaza protests as "pro-Hamas protests".

So when I got to this section, I just stopped reading, because every other claim, which had already been laughably limited in scope, became outright questionable.

Just posting this here to avoid someone seeing 2 links (including "honest reporting"...) and believing that the "pro-Hamas bias" accusations against the BBC are in any way robust.



Your post just attempts to reduce the proven repeated bias by comparison with a supposed pro Israel bias in other organisations.

You then say anyone that disputes the Hamas numbers is an ‘apologist’ for a genocide you made up.

You have provided no sources.

OK.


One tells them to fuck off when they turn up at the door. And off they fuck.

I've seen worse. For 2 years I received the results weekly, that I didn't ask for, of a $1m a year burn reporting stack. This was launched during a massive back patting ceremony like something out of Severance.

So one day I stared at it randomly and noticed that the pie chart percentages on one thing didn't even add up to 100. Looked back at history and it turned out this had been the case since day one. Spent a day taking it to bits and a good 50% of it made no sense at all and people had been making business decisions on it without checking it.

And to remediate it? They replaced it with some AI generated slop which is even worse.


It's always funny when HN users comment that there are no more opportunities for startups and it's too hard to compete against large, wealthy corporations. The reality is that most of them are so badly managed that competing against them is easy if you're actually competent.

> The reality is that most of them are so badly managed that competing against them is easy if you're actually competent.

The world is a graveyard littered with startups that thought this way. One of the consequences of wealth concentration and monopolies is that it is insufficient to be better than your competitors because your customers are also incompetent. To find product-market fit you not only have to be better, you have to be noticed by someone that cares that you're better and upon reflection confirms you solve a valuable problem.

By way of analogy, it's not enough to realize that MouseCorp makes shitty mousetraps and the local village spends $1M/yr on them. You can make a better mousetrap thinking its worth $1M/yr, or do the deeper look and realize the local village doesn't have a mouse problem but rather has a problem with too many feral cats, and has no interest in buying better mousetraps and once their attention is gained simply stops buying mousetraps altogether. Both parties lacked competence, but that didn't mean there was a market.


> The world is a graveyard littered with startups that thought this way. One of the consequences of wealth concentration and monopolies is that it is insufficient to be better than your competitors because your customers are also incompetent.

It's less that and more that governments and bureaucrats are corrupted to create barriers tot the market and to turn a blind eye to anti competitive behavior and outright illegal practices. For example huge banking corporations have been caught laundering money for drug cartels and got away with fines -- if your fintech startup tried that on, you would never see the outside of a prison cell.


> For example huge banking corporations have been caught laundering money for drug cartels and got away with fines -- if your fintech startup tried that on, you would never see the outside of a prison cell.

German bank N26 was embroiled in money laundering, scams and other issues stemming from bad KYC for years, and all they got was a slap on the wrist from regulators.


Right, so don't waste time trying to sell low-margin products to local governments. As the saying goes: it's like trying to shear a pig, too much squealing and not enough wool.

I have seen this way to often in other areas. That is the push here as well AI can sort through it. Too many people are held to account for not meeting what amounts to made up numbers.

Someone intentionally doesn't want those numbers seen or applied.

While I died inside at the 8Gb RAM, this is absolutely right.

We should be developing efficient software, not assuming our customers can just pay for more RAM forever.


Particularly when paying for more RAM means buying a completely new computer.

Even on an upgradable machine. We're looking at ~$400 for 32GB of DDR5, and the price is only going to keep going up. We're at a point now where Apple actually charges less for RAM upgrades than it costs to upgrade your own machine. Insane.

8Gb. Fuck off no chance.

Not in a world of everyone shipping fat browsers with everything.

Edit: everything my kids use in their educational side is browser based or thick web apps. This is going to suck.

We shouldn't be here and 8Gb should be absolutely fine, but that is not the case.


Not sure I understand your complaint - 8GB is a goodish amount of RAM for a Chromebook, the de facto lead for educational stuff. I would take this over any Chromebook, ever, in a heartbeat.

Well ChromeOS is basically a monolithic browser based OS. These will likely have apps deployed which contain one copy of Chrome each. By the time you get three vendors' worth of stuff on it then you're running three isolated browser stacks and eating up RAM. I'm sitting here on a Mac with Teams, Outlook and Slack open and there's 18 gig of RAM gone for example.

As for Chromebooks, they are fucking awful for education. The abject disaster that is Google Classroom needs to just go away. NOTHING works properly, has any inkling of any reasonable design or engineering or is intuitive. I've seen so many students struggling with them.


The RAM usage you are describing is likely not actual resident memory use. Check RPRVT via top on macOS for a more generally useful metric of actual impact per process.

I look at memory pressure. I am running close to the yellow line on a 24Gb machine. If I close the apps, it craters. If I put more workload on it (I have a couple of things that will eat 4-5gb of RAM) it'll start crawling.

They should all be native apps.


You cna use of all Teams, Outlook and Slack from an actual browser if you want to.

My kid's school chromebook is 4GB and it's barely usable -- to the point of being offensively bad. I bought them a macbook air to use at home so they could get things done.

This would be a _drastic_ improvement over what I see most middle school kids using, at a similar-ish price point. 8 isn't great but 8 with apple's really rather decent nvm paging is a step up.


FWIW, my son has a 2020 M1 Air with 8gb and it runs just fine still. 8gb in the Mac world is much different than 8gb in the Windows world. Also, I am guessing most of the Chromebooks currently used in schools are running 4gb. If you need more ram, go up to an Air... reality is this will work fine for most kids and casual browsing scenarios.

> 8gb in the Mac world is much different than 8gb in the Windows world.

Yes, according to the Apple marketing pamphlet.


It's not wrong, it just only works if you stick to the native apps, which you probably should do on a Mac.

The problem is when you start throwing half the modern tech stack crap on top which is built on standalone browser engines. They are NOT memory or CPU efficient compared to native apps. Really kills a nice machine dead.


As if Windows or Linux don't have native applications like MS Word / Excel or LibreOffice Writer / Calc, Firefox, Chrome and so on.

Why would you think the cheapest MacBook available would be intended to use those applications? Apple makes MacBooks for people that need more RAM.

Having used both... it's 100% true

I still use my M1 Air with 8gb as well. I don't do my daily dayjob work on it, but it's more than fine for everything else I do.

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