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Sorry to hear this happened as this shouldn't have been lost. I'll make sure we get in touch with you.


Hey, that was me! What a pleasant surprise, you made my day. Have a good one yourself!


Oh, cool to see this here! I am one of the authors of the paper, I can answer questions later today.


I recently visited Herculaneum and found it fascinating, although lacking in educational facilities - there is just so much history there the guide book had so little. I hope if there is any content extracted that it gets noted in their materials.


How much written content in Herculaneum do you expect this technique will reveal?

Do you expect your technique will apply to other ancient texts beyond just Herculaneum?


Ultimately, the sky is the limit with the Herculaneum collection. It will probably be a slow and steady build though. We are working to prove the methods on the real Herculaneum material, at which point we can start extending the method to more of the intact scrolls. The segmentation and some other steps of the process still involve some manual work, so even once the concept is proven we will want to further automate those steps. If this all goes well, it would be an incentive for those in charge of the archaeological site to further explore parts of the still-buried Villa and look for more scrolls from the library. But even of those already excavated, we are looking at on the order of hundreds of intact scrolls that contain many columns of text each and are currently entirely unseen.

The technique definitely applies to other artifacts! The core pipeline we call Virtual Unwrapping and has been used to successfully reveal some ancient texts[1]. The primary challenge in this post is addressing the "carbon ink problem" specifically, where the ink looks identical in density to the uninked papyrus. But some artifacts make it easier, for example they are written with iron gall ink which shows up quite clearly in X-ray CT.

[1] https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/9/e1601247.full


This is super exciting research! Has there been any progress on creating new micro-ct scans of existing opened and closed Herculaneum scrolls?


Yes, definitely. Our research group and some others have been actively working with and scanning the materials from this collection to advance our understanding and methods. This is focusing on both open fragments and intact, sealed scrolls. Both are helping us work towards ultimately being able to read the sealed scrolls through CT.


>In fact, no identifiable, readable text has been recovered from inside a closed Herculaneum scroll.

But why? Doesn't that seem like a minimal requirement to prove the technique worked? Did you find any text or not?


It is a minimal requirement, but the paper explains why it hasn't yet been done. In addition to the logistical issues of getting access to the scrolls, technological issues also exist. To simplify to the point of being wildly inaccurate, "it don't scan gud and we need more resolution". As someone with no experience in this area, I'd imagine it will upend a small portion of the research community and spawn some fundamental research into improved imaging sensors.

I'd encourage you to read to the end of the paper. It is quite accessible and captivating.


I can second the recommendation of Herculaneum, it is an incredible site and I really enjoyed my visit.

There was a collection of papyrus scrolls in the Villa dei Papiri there, which were carbonized by the ash. They were damaged and preserved at the same time by the eruption, so we still have many of them today but the intact scrolls fall apart if you try to open them by hand (similar to trying to unroll a piece of charcoal).

I have been working for a while on a research team that is attempting to read these scrolls noninvasively using micro-CT. The materials of this particular collection are the perfect storm of challenges for this approach, but we are chipping away at the problem. It has been quite a lot of fun to work on. Should anyone find it interesting, here[1] is some of our work from earlier this year, showing a proof of concept on how we can distinguish carbon ink from carbonized papyrus in X-ray even though they appear identical at first.

[1] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...


"...constructing a custom micro-CT system capable of scanning the larger Herculaneum pieces is feasible using existing technology."

Unbelievable. Are we really that close?

If I might ask: what texts do you secretly hope might be found?


If the morphology hypothesis (of the above paper) is more or less true, then it would indicate it is possible to detect the ink signal if the resolution of the CT scan is roughly at least as small as the thickness of the ink layer on the papyrus surface. We have measured this on some proxy manuscripts made in the lab to be on the order of 5 microns. So if you can scan an entire scroll at that resolution, in theory the data is all there.

The micro-CT machines currently available are either optimized for smaller object sizes or for lower resolutions. The challenge is to build a machine that can scan a "large" object such as an entire scroll at a high resolution. The above comment is saying that you could design and build such a machine using components currently available (expensive, but possible).

That's not the sole obstacle though, next you have to extract the information you want (visible text) from the resulting data. There are some more challenges here yet to be solved, notably segmenting out the individual layers from each other. This is particularly hard with the Herculaneum scrolls, as there are often hundreds of layers all smashed together, and they are wrinkled and warped. But we're working on this too!

Edit: as for the contents, it could be just about anything from the time period. Many of these scrolls have been opened manually over the last two hundred years since their discovery. This has largely destroyed them into thousands of fragments, but in many cases has revealed some text, so we know some of the contents of the library. Much of it is by Philodemus, who was an Epicurean philosopher but not particularly notable. It is believed that there could be more scrolls from other sections of the library still buried, as much of the town is not excavated. If it is shown that we can indeed read the contents noninvasively, it might be an incentive to dig up more of them and see what is there.


Thanks for the details.

I'd like to understand the potential for recovering lost works of any kind. What sort of organizations exist for this?

Burned scrolls, is one source.

In India, there are thousands of manuscripts rotting in temple treasuries.

Palimsets have yet to be discovered in archives.

And even archives themselves may contain lost treasures through misclassification.

Are there other potential sources for finding lost manuscripts?



Sebastian does not disappoint! Thanks!


Bret Victor has an exploration of this question[0] (2015) that I have found helpful.

[0]: http://worrydream.com/ClimateChange/


We likely agree on the larger sentiment here, but in fairness to the author I think the context of the post makes this more acceptable. The textbook recommendations are all submitted in the comments below the compiled list, and the author's own submission[0] includes at least a disclaimer and a justification for why the author felt the need to write the book.

0: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xg3hXCYQPJkwHyik2/the-best-t...

Edit: I have not read this book or any others in the domain, just wanted to add some context I did not already see in this thread.


This might give the beginnings of an idea of what would happen:

https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/


Interesting, thanks for the link. Intuitively it still seems like much of the energy from the projectile would be absorbed deep in the Earth as it traveled through. For sure it would cause some damage, but it still seems like a nuclear bomb would have a higher effective energy, as far as the tactical goal of taking out a city or something.


You can adjust effective penetration depth by the "density" (read, mass per unit cross-sectional area) of the projectile.

You could go anywhere from an osmium needle through to a Mylar disk.

Another relevant XKCD: https://what-if.xkcd.com/20/


This is just like http://windirstat.info/ which can be run on the desktop. Very handy tool...


SpaceSniffer is another great tool for Windows that uses a treemap to visualize files on disk.

http://www.uderzo.it/main_products/space_sniffer


Yep, and if you're on OS X, you can use Disk Inventory X[0] to get the same tree-like layout.

[0] http://www.derlien.com/


I've been using GrandPerspective for quite a long time. Pretty happy with it, lots of ways to drill down deeper / filter / etc to get at what you're looking for.

http://grandperspectiv.sourceforge.net/

edit: oh, hah, they're almost identical. interesting.


Ah, I have used both, but I also haven't been using OS X for the past couple years. One of them, I didn't remember which, was actually a PPC program that required a Rosetta to work. At some point it stopped working, and I switched to the other.

Since I hadn't used them in a while, I forgot which was which. However, some further research says that Disk Inventory X was the PPC program. In that case, I'd also recommend GrandPerspective.


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